Testarossa Water Pump Seal                                                      Courtesy members of FerrariChat Group Discussion Forum.


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Old 03-02-2008, 11:09 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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TR Major - Water Pump Seal - This Can't Be Right!

The pic with text shows T Rutland's seal kit PN99200114 which is said to be for a '90 TR (per web site also).

The Impellor Seal looks completely wrong for this car.
Is it some kind of 'non-intuitive' seal update?

The 'blown apart' old seal has a rubber face which abuts the impeller and slides (rotates) against the main body of the seal.

The 'new' seal does not appear to have a sliding surface & I'm guessing that the white surface is supposed to fit in some kind of housing to form a seal.

Also... The oil seal which sits behind impellor seal had a metal O.D. whereas the original seal also had rubber on it's O.D. I was suspicious of the oil seal, but installed it assuming it was an updated version. Then I got to the Impellor Seal and realized "no way".

If you can shed some light on these seals please chime in!

It was a pain pulling out the seals until I scrounged around the shop and found this little gem. It is a simple paint can opener from the hardware store with the tip bent over a bit more than the original design. Using some leverage as shown - it worked GREAT! The seal popped out so easy I was startled!

:-) Oh, yeah - - free too - - I like it like that! :-)

AND the other end is designed to open a bottle of Beer!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like my project is going to lose a week over a wrong part number unless somebody can offer up some new info....

Rgds,
Vince
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Last edited by vincenzo; 03-02-2008 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:14 PM
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Looks like you got the A, but actually need B. Both seals shown below are from "genuine Ferrari" packaging. (Seal B was bagged, A was/is blister packed.)

There were a number of different variants of the WP seal depending on the TR engine number. Early TR (until Engine 20820) use 120948, superseded to 152051. The 152051 is actually a combination of two parts into a single assembly, 120948 + 121553 (spacer). Later TR's use 130932.

Disclaimer... I don't understand why Ferrari did this and cannot explain the functional differences. 91TR or Dave Helms? Thoughts?
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Last edited by Jack Russell Racing; 03-02-2008 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:33 PM
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^ Good lord... I just retyped that above post. What a mess it was.
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Old 03-03-2008, 03:22 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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As always, thanks for the help Daniel.

The engine in question is a 209XX series in a 1990 TR, so according to my 1990 parts book it should need seal 130932 (only).

Presumably(?) engine numbers less than 20820 use either:
........The 120948 Seal Ring + the 121553 "Backplate for Ring"
........................OR........................ ......
........The single piece equivalent 152051

My 1990 parts book makes no mention of 152051 but I suspect that 152051 is the PN that I had received.
Presumably(?) 152051 was a retrofit for the earlier cars supplied some time after 1990.

My question:
Is my old seal an incorrect: 120948 Seal Ring + the 121553 "Backplate for Ring"?
or is it the latest 130932?

If my old seal is in fact 130932, then it must also be a two piece seal like the earliest version prior to engines less than 20820.

Whew - this is giving me a headache.

So, Daniel, **please** tell me what I actually had in the car and what I actually need!

BTW - - I REALLY don't think I need part 'B' per your post. Both of the seals you have shown look like they need to fit into a recess on impeller PN120770. My impeller has no recess and per my book should be PN 130930.

Also, please tell me if you stock item PN130931 the "Spacer" which accompanies the seal 130932.

As always,
Many Thanks,
Vince
PS: If the photos are too small let me know & I can re-post
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Last edited by vincenzo; 03-03-2008 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:59 AM
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Running out of stuff that I can photograph today. Here's another one...
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Last edited by Jack Russell Racing; 03-03-2008 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:19 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Russell Racing View Post
Running out of stuff that I can photograph today. Here's another one...
Thanks Daniel - I know the photos take a lot of time & trouble. You & Ricambi are most appreciated.

I believe your latest photo is another version of 152051. If not - I am totally confused.

According to my book I need 130932. Do you have one of these?

Always thankful for your help,
Vince
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:40 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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This photo should explain my problem with the seals I've seen so far.

None of the versions have a seal where they contact the impeller. In addition, they make no allowance for differential rotation between the block and the impeller.

I suspect they would leak like a sieve in my application.

Hopefully, PN: 130932 addresses these issues.

Hope this helps,
Vince
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Last edited by vincenzo; 03-03-2008 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:05 PM
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The original seal in your waterpump was the incorrect one. It was a two-piece type which fits an impeller that has a recess to hold the ceramic portion of the seal. I am only aware of two different seals for the TR, the early two-piece style and the later one-piece style. There may be more than one version of the one piece seal, but they should all work the same This is the impeller for the later one-piece seal, with no recess.

We use the seal that Rutlands have supplied you on the later TR's. One thing to note is that the one-piece seal is an extremely tight fit on the steel spacer tube/seal ride. I press the seal onto the tube using a hydraulic press before installing the tube/seal assembly in the housing. Otherwise you have to make a special driver that will press the seal onto the tube at the same time it is being driven into the bore without damaging the seal.

Brian Brown
Patrick Ottis Co.
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Last edited by Motob; 03-03-2008 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:47 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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Thanks Brian this is beginning to make more sense.

Now that I know what to look for, I can see the old style impeller 'cup' you mention in the cross sectional view in my manual. My 'new version' impeller looks just like yours and has no cup. It was lucky that the 'wrong seal' in my car actually was water tight!!!!

Apparently:
~ The top half of the new seal assemble is compressed against the spring & lower half of the seal as the impeller is mounted.
~ Once compressed, the top half of the seal may then rotate free with respect to the stationary lower half.
~ The press fit 'Tube' and upper seal half both rotate at the same speed as the impeller and the shaft.

Questions (see photo) do you:
~ use RTV or anti-sieze between the Tube & seal? It looks like red RTV in the photo....
~ use motor oil or perhaps anti-freeze as a lubricant between the Tube & shaft?
~ intentionally press the top of the seal to be flush with the top of the tube?

Since the manual calls out for two versions of 'Tube' to go with the two versions of the seal... now I need to source a new Tube as well!

What a mess was left behind!

Many Thanks Brian - your expertice and Daniel's patience has really helped!

Sincerely, Vince
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Last edited by vincenzo; 03-04-2008 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:41 AM
Motob Motob is offline
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Yes, You are pretty much correct on all counts. I use a little sealant, silicone or Loctite 510 between the seal and tube. Then press the seal onto the tube so the end is flush. Be very careful, as the seal is fragile. I usually put a dab of silicone sealer between the impeller and the seal as well. If there is any damage to the bore in the housing where someone has pried out the old seal, then I'll put some sealer there too. The new seal has some sealant on it (red stuff), but that will not fill large gaps.

I use some grease on the shaft and oil seal to ensure that it slides on, and made a special driver to tap the outer portion of the seal into the housing.

Are you sure that you need a new seal tube? I can't remember the difference, but the tube is machined so that the OD is a press-fit on the ID of the seal. I wouldn't think that anyone would have changed it back to the earlier style. See if there are any marks on the tube where the original seal was from the factory, it is such a tight fit that you have to destroy and peal the original seal off of the tube.

Brian Brown
Patrick Ottis Co.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:41 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...I use a little sealant, silicone or Loctite 510 between the seal and tube.... I usually put a dab of silicone sealer between the impeller and the seal as well.
Good idea. One point to consider is that the seal 'slides' down with the tube as it is installed. It 'may' move a bit as it wears as well(?). If the silicon has any time to set up, it will tear. Perhaps Hylomar instead of silicone would be an excellent choice for these locations. It is good for either anti-freeze or oil.

See this for detail on Hylomar:
http://www.permatex.com/documents/td...tive/85249.pdf

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...If there is any damage to the bore in the housing where someone has pried out the old seal, then I'll put some sealer there too.
This is also a good spot for Hylomar. Since it does not set up it will not make future removal appreciably more difficult. It is specifically designed for metal to metal flange connections as well as use as a gasket dressing.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...The new seal has some sealant on it (red stuff), but that will not fill large gaps.
I suspect the cup is sprayed with a red anti-sieze as it is manufactured - likely it is not intended as a sealant. Your thoughts about supplementing this with a sealant are extremely valid.

I'll plan on using a **very light** bit of synthetic grease along the lower 3/4's of the pump housing and then drive the cup 3/4's of the way in. Putting the grease on the pump housing will push any excess grease into the housing and leave the outermost 1/4 free of contamination. Then I'll lather up the upper 1/4 of the cup's exterior with Hylomar and then press it home. The excess Hylomar will be pushed to the outside where I can then wipe it away with a towel. This process should make for an easier cup removal next time and still give a clean surface for the Hylomar to form a good water tight seal.

Yeah, I know.... overkill.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...I use some grease on the shaft and oil seal to ensure that it slides on...
Presumably you are referencing the 'Tube to Shaft' space(?). I agree with your use of an oil based grease here. The backside of this tube is exposed to the oil side of the ball bearing - there is no oil seal at that end of the shaft.

If you are referencing the rear oil seal - I fully agree with you there as well.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...and made a special driver to tap the outer portion of the seal into the housing....
Hopefully I can find a 1/2" drive, deep 12 point socket that will fit the bill. (fingers crossed)

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motob View Post
...Are you sure that you need a new seal tube? ....
The parts book shows two versions of tube to go with two versions of seal/ impeller designs. Without a drawing or side by side comparison, I cannot confirm which version of tube is in my car.
-also-
The tube that was in the car was 'marginal' with some 'ding' surface roughness that I had removed with Scotchbrite. The tube had no longitudinal marks to indicate that it had ever had a press fit seal pushed onto it.

With two stikes against it - better to replace than be sorry! I don't want to pull that engine again for another 7 years!


Brian, a personal thank you for your professional expertice.
It would be a heartbreak to do all this work just to see the car puke out of the water pump on first fire!


Sincere Thanks,
Vince
PS: It may sound like it, but I don't work for Permatex. The longer I use Hylomar, the more I like it! Good stuff. Right up there on my list of favorite products along with Kroil penetrant!

Last edited by vincenzo; 03-04-2008 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:55 AM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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THIS REALLY SUCKS!!!

The new water pump seal leaks out the weep hole under nothing more than static head. Never even got it fired up.

all right then....

the water pump seal that was previously installed into my car appeared to be the incorrect seal (see the bottom most post). After much FChat consultation, it was decided thet the new seal that I was sent is in fact the correct seal. It was surmised that the seal that came out of the car was the incorrect seal......

I am at a loss... if anybody has any suggestions - I'm all ears.

I guess I need to talk with the suppliers again come monday.

Did I mention..... THIS REALLY SUCKS!!!!

Rgds,
Vince

Last edited by vincenzo; 06-09-2008 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:51 PM
vincenzo vincenzo is offline
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just in case - i tightened the hose clamp on the water pump nozzle. My initial torque was intentionally on the low side to prevent hose damage - perhaps I was too conservative. it 'may' be fooling me with moisture wicked near the water pump drain hole.....

I give it a 30% chance of a leaky hose - 70% seal.

If the last few drops subside to nothing - - - I'll hope it was the hose & continue until I can start the system & get it pressurized. That'll tell for sure. All I have left is the exhaust sytem before it can fire up on the jackstands.

The morning inspection should tell me for sure.....

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

After reading Brian's post again - - I am more hopeful that I have the right seal in the car.... maybe I'll revise that to 50:50....

Rgds,
Vince

Last edited by vincenzo; 06-09-2008 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:58 PM
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How bad is the leak? If it's just a drip, it is possible that the carbon seal has to "wear-in" a little bit before sealing perfectly. Might as well fire it up and give it a try.

For such a simple design, water pumps on Italian cars can be some of the most exasperating challenges to get right. I have an entire toolbox drawer devoted to special tooling I've made for the job. It seems that everything has to be just perfect or it will leak.
It's pretty hard to remove or reposition a new seal without damage so you end up buying another.

*TIP* Never touch or lubricate the carbon surface when you are assembling.
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Last edited by 2NA; 06-09-2008 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:15 PM
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it has slowed to a couple of drops over the last half hour... I have my fingers crossed that it is just the fluid that was pushed out as I clamped down on the hose.

antifreeze is a very 'wet' liquid & can weep a long distance. I sure hope that is all this is!

Based on Brian's post - it sure seems to be the right seal. Everything he said seems to be spot on.

We'll seeeeeeee.........

Rgds,
Vince
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincenzo View Post
it has slowed to a couple of drops over the last half hour... I have my fingers crossed that it is just the fluid that was pushed out as I clamped down on the hose.

antifreeze is a very 'wet' liquid & can weep a long distance. I sure hope that is all this is!

Based on Brian's post - it sure seems to be the right seal. Everything he said seems to be spot on.

We'll seeeeeeee.........

Rgds,
Vince
We're pulling for you!
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:58 PM
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after sitting overnight - it lost about 2 tablespoons of coolant.

in the pic the seal in my hand is already pressed onto the tube:
~ the blue is hylomar for leak insurance
~ the red is synthetic grease to let the tube slip into the oil seal

it was pressed on the tube with a flat (and level) 2x6 that fully distributed the load across the top of the seal.

The pic of the fitted seal shows the excess hylomar squeezed out before it was wiped free. Hylomar was placed only on the seal so that the excess was pushed out of, rather than into the seal cavity.

I have a real hard time believing that the coolant is leaking around the seal rather than thru it.

I have no idea how to 'better' install this seal.

Has anybody seen these seals leak in 'as new' condition?


All thoughts welcome.

Rgds,
Vince
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This is a cross reference thread to catch some input from the 'non TR' folks out there that deal with the same type of seal:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...#post137778933


Last edited by vincenzo; 06-10-2008 at 12:04 AM.