Running Issues with Testarossa - Mixture lean. Tests and Repair.                                       Courtesy Ferrari Chat contributors
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Running issues with '88 Testarossa.

I've had the old girl for just over a year now, and yesterday clocked over 10 000 kms. It's not been a bad year, with very few issues except for the plug / lead problem a few months back and a couple of loose connections here and there.

A few issues still plague her, which appears to be legacies left over from her UK days.

I continuously blow the 15 amp fuse for the 'oil fans'. But I'm not sure what or where these fans are to start the check process.

And even after all these kms, I still have this annoying surging / bunny hop issue in the 2500 - 3100 rpm range.

When I first got her she was a pig to idle and wouldn't hold fifth gear below 130 km/ph. There is a guy here in Melbourne (FerrariFixer on FChat) who waved his magic wand over her and sorted those issues quick smart. There was a lot of imbalance in the two sides of the fuel system and also she had a vacuum imbalance. I was so pleased when I bought her home. One touch of the key and the idle is perfect, even after two weeks with no running. Best of all is the great drivability. I can now hold fifth down as low as 40 km/ph and smoothly pull away. A different car, thanks to Phil.

BUT............................

The initial problem of this surging / hopping continues with no change.

Symptoms:

Driving along in any gear, but lets pick fourth and fifth. Fourth gear at 2500 rpm, is close to 80 km/ph which happens to be our speed limit for major arterial roads. Fifth gear places you at 103 km/ph, open highway speed with just the lightest throttle pressure. As the car gets to 2500 rpm it starts to surge slightly. If you hold the same throttle position or lightly accelerate the surging becomes totally violent and starts to throw the car around in a backwards / forwards motion putting untold stress on the driveline components.

If you lift off and drop below the 2500 marker, it goes away nearly instantly. At this point you can accelerate hard and push straight through the 2500 - 3100 range without even noticing it. It ONLY happens at the very lightest throttle pressure.

Strangely enough, it seems to do it more when the weather is cold, and less as the weather is really hot (ambient air temp 35 deg C or hotter).

Last week we took the car out and did 500 kms over two days. The drive home on the second day was a nightmare. Trying to hold the car at 100 - 104 km/ph (legal limit) in fifth gear became impossible. I'm riding the 2500 rpm marker and had to 100% concentrate on the balance. 100 rpm over and the surging started. A 100 rpm less and I'm holding up the traffic. Many times I had to drop to fourth and then RPM was at 3200 and over the band where the issues are and drive for miles in fourth just to give myself a rest.

The car runs like an absolute Swiss watch, except for in this range. When I'm on the track or punting hard, there is no indication at all that the car has any issues. It's only at whisper light throttle levels.

Phil has the mixtures perfect, so I'm sure it's not that. But there is something going on that is seriously impeding my enjoyment of the beast, and after a year of this I'm getting towards the end of the tether.

Lately I've been experiencing the same problem for a brief flash around the 1800 - 2000 mark also. Especially in Third and Fourth gears.

You know that horrid jerking feeling when the car is running out of petrol and bunny hops back and forth a few times before it finally dies and rolls to a stop. Well that's the feeling!!

As it's so specific to a rev range, I don't know what it could be. Fuel distribution heads don't seem to go out of calibration without affecting the entire rev range. Ditto for the two fuel ECU's.

Any ideas??
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:22 AM
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What engine family (on the engine block at cyl #6) -- F113A, F113B, something else?
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:27 AM
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Hi Steve,

F113 B - 14425
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:02 PM
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Some things you might try (although I have a feeling this is going to be a difficult Gremlin ):

1. Send me a PM with your email address, and I'll send you a copy of Diagnosis Sheet 6 for the TR KE-Jet Injection System and some instructions on how to make some of the more basic measurements.

2. After you've got the engine warmed-up, try removing one of the fuel pump relays so that you are just running on a single bank and see if the problem is still there or not. Then replace that fuel pump relay and remove the other one and see if the problem is still there or not when running only on the other bank. When only running on one bank, you might need to give it a little throttle to keep it running at idle (and the power will be 1/2), but I think it would be a good clue if you could determine if the problem is really only occurring on one bank or if it occurs on both banks.

If the problem is only occurring on one bank, the next steps would be things like measuring the current in the EHA coil of that bank and seeing if it's going wacky when the problem occurs and disabling the vacuum-controlled bypass valve to see if that eliminates the problem, but if you can get the information from steps 1 and 2 above it could help give direction.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:06 AM
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Steve....could the throttle position microswitch have any bearing on this issue? It seems to happen at the initial throttle plate tip-in?
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:16 AM
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I'm not 100% sure if it could or not -- it's one of the things listed in the Diagnosis Sheet 6 tests (and reasonably easy to test), so it's something I'd test/confirm anyway just as part of some basic pre-tests on any sick KE-Jet TR. Same thing for the coolant temp thermister resistances and making sure that the +12V power is present and reliable to the injection ECUs. If the throttle micro switch is the issue, the way it would appear in the system would maybe be driving the EHA erratically -- so IMO that's maybe the "best" overall measurement to make on a F113B KE-Jet without Lambda to confirm/deny the health of the electrical part of the F113B injection system -- i.e., some reasonable steady EHA current values that decrease with temp/time from cold start-up, steady lowish values during constant warm-running conditions, and the appropriate increase (richness) for WOT, sharp acceleration, etc. would say that the electrical side is doing what it should be.

Frankly, I'm not as convinced that this couldn't possibly be a FD problem as Robert is, so, without any information at all yet, I'd say he'd almost be lucky if this was an electrical fault.

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 01-04-2008 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:20 AM
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Steve and Jeff, I really wish you blokes were around the corner. We'd fix this old girl then have a good laugh over a beer or three..............

rhayden@ferrariaustralia.com will find me.

I'll try the fuel pump off trial today, but I'm tipping that the car will take more throttle to drive with one bank out and probably won't play up. As Jeff say's, it only happens at the lightest throttle settings.

Steve, what's this mean, "Frankly, I'm not as convinced that this couldn't possibly be a FD problem as Robert is" (FD, what's that - Fuel delivery?)
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:34 PM
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FD = Fuel Distributor

email sent -- give a shout if you need help or have a question; otherwise, will await your results for steps 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, and 11.
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:54 PM
regisgtb4 regisgtb4 is offline
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Fuel accumulators

There are 2, get them from BMW ,6 series from the 80s are $120,these are the smooth controllers, routine maintenance to replace these on Redcars.
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Old 06-01-2008, 07:31 PM
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Well today was an interesting day. A mate has this great electronic gizmo and we fitted it up to the Testa then went out for a run. First tried it on the drivers side exhaust, so I have to imagine that is the left side of the engine the way the pipes cross over. Someone here might be able to confirm that.

Instantly it was obvious that the car is WAY too lean. We took it out into the traffic and finally got it onto the freeway where I could maintain some even cruise to replicate this spasmodic jerking that it's been doing for over a year now.

The car runs worst at 106km/ph in fifth. It's at around 2600 rpm here and it will just start jerking violently until it shakes the car apart or you power on and drive through it. Mixture was at 19.68 when it started jumping around. Stab the throttle and it went to 18.5 and the jerking goes away. Wide open throttle was 15.8, but generally it was between 18 and 21 all the time.

We then stopped and changed over the lambda sensor to the other exhaust, which I presume is the drivers side of the engine. Even worse. 22's most of the time at 20.5 when the jerking started at 106 km/ph.

No matter how hard I drove it, I couldn't get into the 14's. 15.7 was the lowest I saw and that was giving it hell in second gear. Idle mixtures seemed better at 15.8 or so, but as soon as I get moving it just isn't getting any fuel at all. Geez, no wonder I'm getting 25 mpg out of it.


So, I've been told time and time again to get it on a dyno with an analyser up it's arse to see what's happening, so now I've gone one better and done some actual road miles. Nest thing I suppose is to try and tune some fuel into her??
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:45 PM
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It sounds like your on the right track Robert. For tuning my car, I finally had to "man up" and buy a 4-Gas Analyser to sample the exhaust stream so I could adjust the fuel mixtures correctly. There is a thread or two on the procedure for adjusting the TR fuel mixtures...but I can't seem to find it. If someone else finds it - please post a link...
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:41 PM
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Even using a four way analyser, it's still best to tune the car for cruise and get the numbers as close to 14.7 as possible. The only way I can see to do this is either having a mobile four way gas unit so you can actually drive along on cruise at 60 mph and check the numbers. Even then you will have to stop and tweak, then run again, check the numbers, stop and tweak and so on. Only other option is tune it live on a dyno.

Idle mixtures have some importance to get the car to idle right and warm up nicely, but it seems cruise mixtures are the most critical. Problem with the KE system is there is bugger all to actually adjust>

Steve M might have some clues or feedback on this.

Did you buy a snap on 4 way or something similar Jeff?
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Old 06-02-2008, 02:32 AM
northern frog northern frog is offline
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Do you have cats on your car?
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:30 AM
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Your report that some enrichment does occur at WOT, or when stabbing the throttle, is a sign that the electrical part of your KE-Jet system is working (which might be a bad thing since an electrical problem could be easier to fix than a hydraulic problem).

Were you able to confirm/deny any of the electrical tests that I emailed to you? You really don't want to do any mechanical tweaking until you are fairly sure that the electrical stuff is working IMO.

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 06-02-2008 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:02 PM
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Steve I haven't done all the tests yet. Slack I know, but I was waiting till I could get some gas analysis done so I could report back in with a bit more info. Today I had a bit of a further tinker with the o2 sensor up its bum on both sides. Both fuel heads are lean as can be. Both around the same. 15.5 at idle, 19 at cruise, and off the scale 30+ on over run. For me it was interesting that no matter what I tried, both sides were bad. I was sort of hoping that one side had good mixtures and the other side was crook, would have made it easier to diagnose.

I was always of the impression that the car had two fuel ECU's located in the upper rear quarter on the RHS. After today, it appears that these are the ignition ECU's and that there is only one fuel ECU mounted on the LHS upper quarter. I found this out by mistake. Laying alongside the radiator over flow bottle I found a small rubber tube which had vacuum on it. I followed it to the front of the inlet manifold on the LHS but it didn't go anywhere. Then I started looking around and I found an empty nipple where it appeared to go, on the single ECU on the LHS!

From what I can see this must be the fuel ECU and it needs to monitor manifold vacuum, like a MAP sensor does, probably so it can alter mixtures. I stuck it back on, and even though the car idled a little better, my problem got worse and the car actually leaned out even more! It appears that it must have been removed at some time in the past to try and make the car actually get a bit richer. I actually took it back off again as at cruise the car actually runs a little better with it off and sucking vacuum, rather than connected which just isn't right!

From what I can see today the problem is causing issues to both banks. That sort of discounts individual components causing the issue. I have to look for components that will affect both units together. Temp sensor has to be the first thing to check, and maybe even the ECU itself. I can borrow an ECU from another car and try it to see if there is any improvement. Then I suppose the next thing is to run the full set of tests and see if I can pinpoint any further component failure.
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:10 PM
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Just to confirm. The 3mm Allen key screws under the top cover of the KE units, purely adjust idle mixtures? Even with these now set slightly rich at idle, the car is still really lean at any throttle level. So the only thing I played with today was the idle mixtures and the big brass bypass air valve to set the idle speed and balance the two banks.

There is no other mechanical adjustment to richen the mixtures on a KE Jet apart from idle mixtures, is that right?

My car has no CATS and no O2 sensor in the exhaust. Is this normal for a UK spec KE Jetronic car? Does the fuel ECU simply hold a flat file? Having only basic information fed into it, like engine temp and throttle position, it has no ability to make changes to the fuel curve like it would if it was reading an o2 sensor.

I expect that a car with CATS and an O2 sensor wired to the fuel ECU would be able to run an infinitely variable fuel curve dependant upon the input sources. Did any Testa's run 02 sensors?

Last edited by uzz32soarer; 06-02-2008 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:41 PM
Tifoso1 Tifoso1 is offline
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I think you still have O2 sensors in front of the where the pre-cats are for US cars. Their functions are to monitor the engine exhaust and so the FI system can adjust the fuel mixture accordingly.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:49 PM
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My car has no O2 sensors. The original exhaust would have looked like image number one below. Number 29 is listed as 'plug for CO intake'

USA spec car with O2 sensors would look like image number two below. Obviously the USA cars have a different wiring loom and fuel ECU to take the extra inputs from the O2 sensors. Part number 1 shows the USA spec oxygen sensor.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:01 PM
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Here's two images just taken of my exhaust manifold.

There is a blanking plug where the CO intake is shown in the parts drawing above. There are also two other blanking plugs on each side of the car as shown. Definitely no O2 sensors.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:05 PM
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Disregard aspects of my first post today. I was right after all, there are two fuel ECU's as I just confirmed from the parts book. The single one on the LHS is the ignition module and it does have manifold vacuum going to it, Ferrari call it the 'ignition module depression hose'.

Now, this hose is not attached on my car and obviously it should be, yet without it I actually do get the mixtures a little bit richer, not much, but a point or so.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzz32soarer View Post
...The 3mm Allen key screws under the top cover of the KE units, purely adjust idle mixtures? Even with these now set slightly rich at idle, the car is still really lean at any throttle level....
It's more accurate to say that small adjustments of the mixture screw have a larger effect at idle because the slits in the FD aren't opened very much at idle (so a small adjustment of the slit opening is a bigger percentage change). At large airflow (i.e., large slit opening), these small adjustments are reduced to a very small percentage of the slit opening so not much effect on A/F ratio at large airflow.

 
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Originally Posted by uzz32soarer View Post
...There is no other mechanical adjustment to richen the mixtures on a KE Jet apart from idle mixtures, is that right?...
Correct

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uzz32soarer View Post
...My car has no CATS and no O2 sensor in the exhaust. Is this normal for a UK spec KE Jetronic car? Does the fuel ECU simply hold a flat file? Having only basic information fed into it, like engine temp and throttle position, it has no ability to make changes to the fuel curve like it would if it was reading an o2 sensor....
Yes, this is correct for a F113B TR -- Your system operates similar to a K-Jet without Lambda system where the warm-up regulator has been replaced by the injection ECU and the EHA valve on the FD (to add enrichment when cold or when you blip the throttle).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uzz32soarer View Post
...Did any Testa's run 02 sensors?
Yes, US, CH, and CAT versions. They've got the added smarts to dynamically vary the electrical signal going to the EHA valve to keep the average O2 sensor output a 0.5 volts during non-WOT warm-running.

You've got the right thought that both banks going from good operation to bad at the same time implies that it's something common to each bank (if we can trust you that there was prior good operation ). Please advise if the electrical tests show something wrong.

PS You shouldn't have that vacuum hose disconnected from the ignition ECU. This will cause the ignition timing to always be very significantly retarded. You won't be happy if you have to replace the ignition ECU -- it's hard to find and pricey.

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 06-03-2008 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
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(if we can trust you that there was prior good operation)

Nope you can't trust me on that at all. When I bought the car back in '06, it wouldn't hold 5th gear under 140 km/ph and when cold it hunted really badly, between 500 and 1500 rmp. Warming it up was terrible, always thinking it had stalled and then it would rev up again, then die down. Once running (or warm) it started and idled fine though.

Then I had a local Ferrari Fixer tune it, and since then it's been great, idles perfectly from cold during warm up, and I can drive it at 60 km/ph in fifth if I want to. Totally different car. BUT!! It's always done this jerking at 2500 - 3200 rpm, and tuning it didn't get rid of that at all. It's taken till now to actually get some cruise readings to see what it's actually doing, and obviously it running way too lean. But on both banks pretty evenly.

So no, I can't attest to "prior good operation" but I remain hopeful that sometime soon I will actually get to experience the Testarossa goodness the way it is intended to be, right across the rev range with no shortcomings.

I'll start on all those electrical tests as soon as work loads allow, and lets see what is discovered.
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:23 PM
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Ok . I am going to go out on a limb here. If your car has no cats, and no O2 sensor it is always working in open loop. I have no experience of fiddling with the Bosch K jetronic on my TR. but I did quite a bit of that with my Porsche which is like one bank of the TR and I did run open loop for a while without any problems. I never could follow the instructions for proper checking of the system which I am sure Steve gave you, but you can do so useful tuning with a cheap 2 wire Bosch o2 sensor that you plug anywhere you can in your exhaust and a voltmeter and long lead wires. it will tell you if you are rich or lean, but not how rich, or how lean. In the Porsche the best I can do is rich sometimes, lean sometime. As you noticed there is not much you can do. But to check if your problem is really due to fuel mixture you can make sure the warm up regulator is always "cold" That will enrich your mixture, Beyond that the only other semi easy way to adjust the mixture with which I have any experience is to fool around with the counterweight in the air flow sensor. With lighter weight the lever moves more for the same air flow and gives you more fuel > richer!. Nasty but I like to fool around. Not sure I would do that with the TR! Hope this does not confuse you further
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:04 AM
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Hmmm.....the Ke Jetronic on my car has no warm up regulators either. I've tried to adjust the screws in the air flow sensor but cannot get enough adjustment to get the cruise mixtures even close to rich enough.

Work is a b1tch this week, but as soon as I get a half day I'm going to do all of Steve's tests, starting with the temp sensor. Seems the only way to chase down the issue, now that I have confirmed that it is lean right across the range.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
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Driving along in any gear, but lets pick fourth and fifth. Fourth gear at 2500 rpm, is close to 80 km/ph which happens to be our speed limit for major arterial roads. Fifth gear places you at 103 km/ph, open highway speed with just the lightest throttle pressure. As the car gets to 2500 rpm it starts to surge slightly. If you hold the same throttle position or lightly accelerate the surging becomes totally violent and starts to throw the car around in a backwards / forwards motion putting untold stress on the driveline components.
Any ideas??

Don't know if someone mentioned this, but one of my old cars did this and it was a bad plug wire. Check your wires if you've not already done so.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:13 PM
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Nope, plugs, leads and extenders are all great. Ditto for caps and rotors. I did those al first as comparatively they were easy.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:23 PM
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I have some results to report in Steve.

TR coolant thermister resistance test. Ambient air temperature here today was 18 deg C. I ran the car for three or four minutes to check idle so it wasn't dead cold but pretty close to cold.

Measuring from pin 21 to pin 2 on the unplugged harness connector.

Rear ECU measured 2265 ohms. Front ECU measured 2173 ohms. I estimate my coolant temp to be around 20 - 25 deg C so looking at the sliding scale on the graph, these figures look about right.

----------------------------------------------------------------

TR EM Pressure Actuator Coil Resistance Test

Measuring form Pin 10 to Pin 12.

Rear ECU = 18.4 ohms
Front ECU = 18.3 ohms

----------------------------------------------------------------

Water Thermoswitch

Measuring voltage on the red wire with engine running I have +14.47v

----------------------------------------------------------------

TR throttle microswitch resistance test

Measuring between pins 1 and 13 on the ECU Harness.

These results are inconclusive probably due to the few minutes that the engine ran prior to the test. Rear ECU read 0.03ohms at rest and open curcuit when throttle opened even the smallest amount. Front ECU read 0.04ohms and then straight to open circuit.

I know this should have read 140 ohms on a cold engine, but this didn't happen. I will redo this test in a few hours when the engine is dead cold again.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I'm about to start on the airflow meter senso potentiometer test, so will post results once this is done. 4 down, two to go.
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:33 PM
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Airflow meter sensor potentiometer test

Something not right here.

I removed the two fuel pump relays then connected a wire from the big positive on the starter to the white wire with blue trace which I removed from the starter. There was a small audible click as I touched this which I presume was the relay closing?

I then tried measuring the voltage between the two bottom pins and an earth point as instructed. I got zero volts yet I should of had 7-8v on each. Both measured zero.

Then I tried the centre pin which also had zero, and even whilst pressing the airflow plate I had nothing. So I may have an issue here.

I did all of this with the ECU connectors still off, so not knowing where to go next, I reconnected the two ECU's and tried again. Same result. Zero voltage!!

Once the ECU's were connected I tried to start the car and it took ages of spinning over before it actually fired. Don't know if that's normal either?
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:08 PM
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Robert - perhaps this may be of help. I suspect that the flexible rubber (black) tube that you found going into a canister that had vacuum pulled through it is the vacuum assist for the baffles in the air conditioning / ducting system under the dash. If you remove this black tube from the canister (reservoir) located over the left rear wheel, the air venting in your passenger compartment will no longer work. That is, the ducting will not change when you press the A/C buttons from defrost to dash flow.

These ducts are vacuum assisted.

The important issue is that if the vacuum tube is removed or violated, then air will leak into the manifold of the left bank (that is where the vacuum is generated). This can lead to a mixture problem. I know this because at one time my ducting failed to work (defroster would not work). Upon finding the source of the problem, I noted that the end of the black tube had become dry and cracked, and was no longer creating an air-tight seal with the canister. It was sucking air thereby eliminating the negative pressure. I clipped off an inch of the tube to come to fresh rubber. Problem solved.

Hope this helps.

Jim S.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:46 PM
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You must have the injection ECUs plugged in when you measure for the 8V at the airflow potentiometers -- so your getting nothing when they were unplugged was the correct result, but it's odd that you didn't get the 8V when you plugged them back in. The injection ECUs make the +8V out of the same +12V on the red wire at the water thermoswitch so you might go back and confirm that you've still got the +12V on the red wire (I say +12V, but it's really the output of the alternator so the ~14.5V is OK for what I'm calling "+12V").
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:55 PM
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Steve, do I take the white / blue wire off the starter and supply it with 12v or leave it attached to the alternator and supply it with 12v.



Pretty cool when I’m in my shed on the other side of the World and you are advising me from the USA at the same time. Gotta love the Ferrari World.


Jim. The vacuum canister is fine. This was the vacuum line that goes from the front of the LHS manifold to the ignition computer that had fallen off.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:21 PM
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Okay, I've double checked the voltage to the red wire on the water temp sensor and that's fine at 14v.

So I pulled the fuel pump relays again and hooked 12v from the starter to the white / blue wire at the starter to set the relay. Checked both pins again, definately zero voltage there. Also checked by putting my negative probe to the top pin and positive probe to the bottom pin, looking for earth at the top pin. Same thing - zero voltage.

So, looks like there is a definite issue here. Could the system go into some kind of 'limp' mode when there is no voltage signal at these pins or what would the effects be on the fueling system?
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:52 AM
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Rob – I emailed you Fig 3 (the injection system) from the 459/86 TR wiring diagram for your model. It is so wonderfully simple compared to the US version , but it has the exact same architecture for the wires going to the airflow potentiometers so I can’t see how it should work any differently. It is true that I only have Diagnosis Sheet N. 6 (for the US TR) and your model is actually covered by Diagnosis Sheet N. 5; however, I have reviewed the actual schematics of both, and, in both cases, there is no reason why having the ignition key “on” or “off” would make any difference (as long as you’ve got the red wire at +12V). In Diag. Sh. 6, it does say “injection ECUs connected and ignition key ‘on’” for the measurement conditions at the airflow potentiometer wires so it wouldn’t hurt to retry with the key “on” (but I’ll be shocked if it makes a difference -- my guess is that “with +12V power applied to the injection system” -- i.e. red wire at +12V got confused into “with the key ‘on’” somewhere along the way).

I’d be very surprised if you had the exact same fault inside both injection ECUs, so you might want to try confirming that +12V power AND ground is actually reaching the injection ECUs. Having the red wire at +12V is a very good sign that the +12V is reaching them because the food chain is:

+12V from battery -to- relay C terminal 30 -to- relay C terminal 87 -to- 1/6 injection ECU pin 1 -to- 7/12 injection ECU pin 1 -to- 2-way splitter -to- water thermoswitch (and the other branch goes to the throttle microswitch)

Since you are making the +12V measurement at the end of this chain, there’s a good chance it’s OK at the ECUs IMO. Checking the ground is a more difficult situation because the food chain is:

Ground connection at engine -to- 3-way splitter where:
One branch goes to relay C terminal 31
One branch goes to 1/6 injection ECU pin 2
One branch goes to 7/12 injection ECU pin 2

Since your relay C is working, that confirms that its ground connection isn’t horrible, but it really doesn’t guarantee that the other ground connections are OK (if there is a problem at the 3-way splitter). Bottom line is that what you’d like to measure is the voltage between pin 1 and pin 2 right at each injection ECU with everything plugged in and while the red wire is at +12V (or the engine is running) -- should be +12V -- but this is difficult without the special interconnection box. I can’t recall if you can remove the back connector shell enough on the 25-pin connectors to make a measurement while they are plugged in.

If you do have +12V power between pin 1 and pin 2 at the injection ECUs, but no 7~8V between pin 18 and pin 14, that would be a bad sign IMO.

PS For the Throttle Microswitch Resistance Test, the “140 ohm when cold” part only applies to US version TR. On your model (KE-Jet without Lambda), it should be 0 Ohms at idle and infinite ohms off-idle regardless of cold or warm conditions – sorry for the confusion (and yours seems OK).
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:14 AM
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I forgot to add that you can try making an easier-to-do resistance measurement to see if the wires going to pin 2 on the injection ECUs are a good ground (but I think that the functional voltage measurement with everything plugged in and actually working is a more reliable test for determining good vs bad). To make the resistance measurement:

1. key "off"

2. unplug both injection ECUs

3. unplug the large round C12 connector from the triangular black box

4. measure the resistance from the female metal pin 2 terminal in the (unplugged) 25-pin injection ECU connector on the harness side to the engine block or cylinder head -- should be 0 Ohms (or a few tenths of an Ohm maximum).

5. repeat step 4 for the other 25-pin injection ECU harness connector -- should also be 0 Ohms (or a few tenths of an Ohm maximum).

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 06-06-2008 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:03 PM
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In Diag. Sh. 6, it does say “injection ECUs connected and ignition key ‘on’” for the measurement conditions at the airflow potentiometer wires so it wouldn’t hurt to retry with the key “on” (but I’ll be shocked if it makes a difference -- my guess is that “with +12V power applied to the injection system” -- i.e. red wire at +12V got confused into “with the key ‘on’” somewhere along the way).
Did a fair bit of fiddling around today. I needed to be comfortable with the wiring schematics and make sure I could understand it before I went any further.

There was a bunch of things needed to be checked, but before I did this I ran the same test again, but this time with ignition on............bugger me if I now got an 8v reading at the bottom pin. Centre pin showed zero volts and as I slowly pushed down with my finger on the plate it went all the way to 7.98v with the plate right at the bottom.

So it looks like that part is okay after all.

So we learn something every day eh Steve. Ignition ON required on a late model Euro spec car.

Next thing was to do Steve's last check which required getting in to the back of the ECU plugs so I could test things with the car running. Wasn't too bad getting into the plugs, just had to take care sliding the factory shrink covering back and then peeling the rubber back on itself. Pics below.

With the car running I have a 14.45v reading between pins 1 and 2 on both ECU's.

Next I pulled out the triangular box and removed the two round plugs (without buggering them!). This box simply holds three relays out of harms way and is far from complex. Pics below of the relays.

Starting with Relay C terminal 30 I checked voltage with Ign ON and had 11.8v using terminal 31 s the ground. Keeping Terminal 31 as ground I checked pins 1 on each fuel ECU and had the same 11.8v. All good.

Then I held my probe on Relay C terminal 30 as a constant voltage and checked the earths on the two relays D and E, and then on pins 2 of both fuel ECU's and got good grounds on all four spots.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So at this stage I have passed all tests, once we realized that IGN must be ON to perform these tests.

Back to square one it seems!!

One thing bothers me a bit is that relays D and E are listed as Control relay for enrichment under acceleration and control switch relay for enrichment under acceleration. This rings ALARM bells to me as this is where my car appears to be crazy lean. Could there still be an issue with these two relays? Are there further test procedures to verify that these two relays are working right, and are in fact the right components as they have different numbers as can be seen in the images below.
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:06 PM
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I forgot to add that you can try making an easier-to-do resistance measurement to see if the wires going to pin 2 on the injection ECUs are a good ground (but I think that the functional voltage measurement with everything plugged in and actually working is a more reliable test for determining good vs bad). To make the resistance measurement:

1. key "off"

2. unplug both injection ECUs

3. unplug the large round C12 connector from the triangular black box

4. measure the resistance from the female metal pin 2 terminal in the (unplugged) 25-pin injection ECU connector on the harness side to the engine block or cylinder head -- should be 0 Ohms (or a few tenths of an Ohm maximum).

5. repeat step 4 for the other 25-pin injection ECU harness connector -- should also be 0 Ohms (or a few tenths of an Ohm maximum).
I did this one too Steve. 0.4 ohms from one ECU and 0.3 ohms from the other when going straight to the rocker cover bolts.
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:41 PM
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Pictures:

1: Airflow meter sensor potentiometer test
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:43 PM
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Contents of the 'triangle box' under the RHS rear quarter panel with the two round plugs.
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:45 PM
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Fuel ECU's with connectors pulled back to expose wires for testing:
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...So we learn something every day eh Steve. Ignition ON required on a late model Euro spec car...
Certainly, and it's probably the same for every version KE-Jet TR (I've made this same measurement on my TR twice before, but obviously forgot the details so am relearning ). There is no direct connection from a key powered +12V source to the injection ECU (on any KE-Jet TR) so it must have enough smarts inside to look for the presence of another signal that is based on the key being "on" -- like the tach signal from the ignition ECU being present (even if "0") -- just a guess.

 
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...One thing bothers me a bit is that relays D and E are listed as Control relay for enrichment under acceleration and control switch relay for enrichment under acceleration...
Those translations are a little misleading. Both relays are only involved in firing, or inhibiting from firing, the cold start injectors (not the general A/F ratio during warm-running).

Yes, it's sort of bad news when everything measures OK.

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 06-07-2008 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:19 AM
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What else could be causing the car to run so lean Steve? Is there anything else on the fuel side or should I look at ignition module and see if it's advancing or retarding properly?

I'm really guessing now.
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Old 06-07-2008, 10:10 AM
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Vacuum leak...intake manifold...control tube...brake assist?

Jim S.
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:36 PM
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This is a very confusing thread to say the least. I agree with jselevan in that it could be a vacuum leak problem. But why only at such a specific rpm range? What specific conditions are occuring at the rpm range with the car warmed up and running down the road? What sort of vacuum problem would affect BOTH cylinder banks? Could the vacuum problem be intermittent, not always there, but happening only under certain conditions? Did the mechanic know of this "surging & bucking" condition when he set the fuel mixtures? Sorry to be so vague, without any direction....just tossing out some random questions.
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Old 06-07-2008, 03:55 PM
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Rob -- You'll need to make your own decisions about where to go next or what to do (some things are not a trivial amount of work so I'm uncomfortable saying do this or do that). You've completed the initial electrical tests that check the various input signals to the injection ECUs. The more difficult electrical tests are checking what the outputs of the injection ECUs are doing under various conditions -- i.e., measuring the voltage from pin 10 to pin 12 (or the current flowing from pin 10 to pin 12), but this can be dangerous -- if pin 10 gets shorted to pin 12 (even momentarily), it will blow up the injection ECU (this is where using the special interconnection box is much safer than a manual probing method). I don't know if the pin 10 to pin 12 tests on Diag. Sh. N. 6 are exactly the same as those on Diag. Sh. N. 5 for your model, but I think it would be better to do some of the simple tests on the other systems before digging into the difficult electrical tests (and you may need to get a copy of Diag. Sh. N. 5 if you want to do the more advanced electrical output tests):

Ignition -- why not put a timing light on it and make sure the idle timing is OKish and that the advance seems to work OK? It's relatively easy and quick -- unlike a 400i .

Intake -- per Jim's suggestion, study the places where (unwanted) air could enter the intake tract (without deflecting the airflow metering plate) and try to make sure things are OK -- no cracked hoses, the brake booster will hold a vacuum, etc..

Fuel -- the advantage of the KE-Jet system is that it doesn't have a warm-up regulator so there's really only one critical input pressure to measure -- the regulated supply pressure. I have to agree with Jeff's sentiment that it's hard to see how a problem here could affect both banks simultaneously, but it wouldn't hurt IMO to confirm the regulated fuel pressures are in spec. The more advanced fuel measurements involve measuring the actual discharge rate from each injectors (at low and high flow rates) either using the factory rotameter device, or I've had reasonable results with 100mL graduated cylinders (getting about 20mL in 3 minutes holding the airflow metering plate in the approximate idle location, and about 40 mL in 1 minute holding the airflow metering plate down 5~6 mm -- and you could do more intermediate points):
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:25 AM
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What is the air-fuel ratio at idle? I see where at cruise it was very lean, and on acceleration that the mixture level never got down into the 14 range. If the a/f ratio at idle is also lean, then perhaps the actual base line mixtures are off? If the car had O2 sensors it would be great to see the signal values being sent to the ECUs, but unfortunately that is not the case here.

I'm thinking the only way to get to the bottom of this is to start from square one. First verify that the air flow metering plates (engine off) are in the proper position in the barrel portion of the air diffuser housings. Next would be to verify throttle plate actuation, they must be in sync with each other, not just close but perfect. Check the routings of all vacuum hoses and their condition. Is there a way to put vacuum to the Ingition brain and measure the output changes with the car sitting still? Unplug and inspect every dog-gone electrical connection, including the fuse panel, and re-plug everything. Verify that the auxiliary air valves are working properly. If I can think of any other nonsensical task to perform...I'll post.

Accept my apologies for rambling on here. But I would like to see this problem solved. The reason is that about a year ago I read through Robert's postings about the electrical system fixes that he has done...and using that information I was able to fix my own Testarossa's mother board. So I would really like to see a successful conclusion to this thread....Robert certainly deserves it.....
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:20 PM
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This is really puzzling, and as such quite interesting. Perhaps more so for us than for you trying to fix it. Silver lining is when this is done you and Steve will be the top world experts for the TR ke fuel injection. But it seems to me that you may have two problems:
1 Car runs way too lean
2 car bucks at a well defined rpm (and throttle opening)
The two may or may not be related. The strong dependency on rpm may indicate that a connection or wire enters into some sort of resonance and either opens or short the circuit. If that is so you would have to make all the measurements with the engine reving at 2500 rpm!!! Could be an old solder, a kinked wire, corroded connector. Could even be in the ignition. If you go through the critical rev range quickly the resonance has no time to get going. For example if the wires in your flywheel rev sensor vibrate and short (or disconnect) themselves at 2500 rpm that would affect both the ignition and the fuel injection through the tach relay which would kill the fuel pumps I think.
Could you trick the ECU into thinking the engine is cold which would tend to enrich the mixture and see if the bucking problem remains?
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:27 PM
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This is a very confusing thread to say the least. I agree with jselevan in that it could be a vacuum leak problem. But why only at such a specific rpm range? What specific conditions are occuring at the rpm range with the car warmed up and running down the road? What sort of vacuum problem would affect BOTH cylinder banks? Could the vacuum problem be intermittent, not always there, but happening only under certain conditions? Did the mechanic know of this "surging & bucking" condition when he set the fuel mixtures? Sorry to be so vague, without any direction....just tossing out some random questions.
Yes Jeff, the mechanic knew of the surging and bucking at time of tune up. It also had crap idle, reving and dying till it warmed up. Since the tune the idle has been superb and the general drivability of the car has improved ten fold, but not this 2500 - 3200 glitch. If I'm cruising in 5th at 106 km/ph, it will do it every time. If I slip it back to 4th at the same speed I'm just outside 3200 rpm and it will cruise effortlessly all day long.

Similarly, 4th at a bit over 80 kmph puts it around 2600 rpm, and it willplay up, so I can either rev it harder using third, or drop to top and come down to 2000 rpm but then it's not as quick to respond and generally at 80 I'm in traffic somewhere.

At idle the car runs perfectly, not lumpy at all so I don't think there could be a vacuum leak, but then again, it has always had pretty average brakes and people have told me that is unusual for a TR and that I should check my booster for vacuum!

Steve, where do I get my hands on these other test sheets. I don't mind doing the tests at all and will jury rig something to ensure I don't blow the old girl up. I have no Ferrari mechanics in Melbourne who can assist with this. Even Ferrari Fixer would be in the same boat as me, test upon test upon test until a resolution. He spoke to me last week at about the 25 hour mark, which would have equated to over $2k outlay had he been doing Steve's tests rather than me. Besides, he is in the UK on leave at present.


Jeff, AFR's at idle is around 15.8 and no mater what I try I can't get it better than that.

Should I change out the ignition module? I can't think of how the ignition timing could retard or advance me enough to run so lean, but hey, I have to try something.
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:31 PM
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This is really puzzling, and as such quite interesting. Could you trick the ECU into thinking the engine is cold which would tend to enrich the mixture and see if the bucking problem remains?
Maybe Steve can help here. I've tested the temp sensor for +12v input on the red wire, but what if the temp sensor was crook and not outputting properly, telling the fuel ECU's the wrong engine temps? If it thought that the car was too hot, wouldn't it lean it off? Similarly, if the sensor read too cold, then it would let the ECU's richen the mixtures up!

Just stabbing around in the dark here!
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:12 PM
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Robert...regarding the AFR at idle of 15.8? Are you saying that no matter how much you adjust the mixture screws the AFR stays the same? Or is the AFR staying at this level, while your doing everything BUT adjusting the mixture?

This next bit of advice comes with a disclaimer...."use at your own discretion".....

IF EVERYTHING checks, all electrical and mechanical components, with nothing apparently wrong. Then I would --slightly-- tweak the mixture a bit more rich. First off, stick a wrench into the mixture screws and use some method of marking the position of the wrench/screws in their current position. This way you can go back to a baseline if you get things messed up. Now turn both adjustment screws about 10 degrees clockwise from their current position. Then drive the car and see what happens. If things improve try another 5 degrees turn and see what happens. The mixture adjustments should be done in VERY small incremental changes. An AFR of 15.8 is too lean in my opinion, you want to be in the 15.0 range at idle. At wide open throttle an AFR around 12.8 to 13.2 is okay - again just my opinion.

I'm getting the feeling that the problem is AFR related.
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:16 PM
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Jeff it didn't matter how much I turned them I couldn't get the idle mixtures down below 15.8. Any more and it just wouldn't run. I kept trying to balance the air by pass screw (big brass one) and the mixture adjusters but even with the RPM held up by the air by pass screws I couldn't get the AFR's down. I would have loved to see 14.7 at idle, or even slightly leaner at 15's, but it wasn't possible. I figured I would even go stupid rich at idle like 13's, just to try and richen up the cruise and just see if the lurching went away, but it wasn't possible to get that range of adjustment out of the old girl.
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:20 PM
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I just had a chat on the phone with a fellow F Chatter and TR owner in Sydney with a 91TR running KE Jet. He has a similar issue on very light running throttle at the exact same rev ranges as I do. His problem is nowhere near as emphaasised as mine as he can throttle down and drive through the glitch, but after looking through his entire electrical / ignition system, he is convinced that his issue lays in the fuel delivery. He replaced his injectors and for six months it was like finding another 50 hp, but then things went downhill again.

His car is a UK delivered 1991 model so I think that it is probably the same as mine and has no O2 sensor.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:34 AM
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Yes it's a good idea to replace the old steel injectors with the new brass ones - and eliminate any issues due to corrosion.

I have a hard time grasping the idea the no matter how much you turned the mixture screws that the AFR would now go below 15.8. It still seems as if there is some "unmetered" air entering somewhere. Here's some stupid questions and don't shoot me for being obvious, but when you are adjusting the mixture screws, are you plugging up the access hole prior to measure the AFR? Does pinching off the aux. air valve hoses cause a change in idle speed (with the engine warmed up)? If you screw in the idle air bypass screws far enough...will the engine die?

We have just gotta to figure this thing out.....
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:33 AM
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eYEs Jeff, we were re covering the holes above the mixture screws before taking the readings and also the car would die if the air by pass screws were turned to far in. I didn't check pinching the aux air valve hoses. I can do that pretty easy whilst it's apart.

How much idle vacuum should there be at the brake booster? That's the longest vacuum run isn't it. I should hook up a vacuum guage and see what I have at all the vacuum points.

Just have to figure out where they all are and what I should have at them.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:22 AM
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Robert, you can hook a vacuum gage up to the ports at the rears of the intake plenums, the ones with the hoses that go to the fuel evaporative canisters. The main thing is to get a balance between the two banks. A good rule of thumb for a starting point for the idle air bypass screws, is to screw them all the way in (don't ham-fist them tight...just till they bottom out) and then back them about about 1.25 to 1.5 turns, and procede from there.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:08 PM
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Robert,

Sorry to jump in so late here, as I just saw this thread...I spent many years in my early automotive days doing in-shop diagnostic seminars for Bosch on CIS, CIS-Lambda and CIS-E. Although my skills are a bit rusty from lack of recent exposure to these systems, here are some things to consider.

Going back to basics and what I think I know thus far from your posts:

1) AFR lean: Go no further-> Disconnect the brake booster hose per Jim's comments and re-check. A leaking booster can create a massive vacuum leak that cannot be compensated for.

2) If the booster is not leaking, consider using a propane enrichment/injection system to "sniff" for vacuum leaks. If the idle speed rises, or your AFR improves, you've got a vacuum leak.

3) Disable/plug off your Aux. Air Valve circuit. This system, if allowing air to pass when the vehicle is "warmed up" will send you down the wrong road.

4) Check that the throttle plates are indeed set correctly. They should be open no more than .003-.004" with a wire gage.

5) In that the system does not have a WUR per se, you must know if the temperature sender is working correctly. This really sets the EVA current curve.

6) Voltages and grounds: Often overlooked, all electrical systems must be at the same "ground plane."
-Measure the voltage between the battery negative post and chassis. It should be 0.00 Volts on the millivolt scale.
-Measure the voltage between the chassis and the base of the coolant sensor. It should be 0.00 Volts on the millivolt scale.
-Measure the voltage between the chassis and the fuel distributor. It should be 0.00 Volts on the millivolt scale.
-Measure the voltage between the chassis and the ECU ground pin. It should be 0.00 Volts on the millivolt scale.

7) Is the alternator output above 13.2 Volts and "clean". Is the output clean? (Just because the "alt" warning light isn't on doesn't mean all is "OK".) A scope will confirm...

8) What is the voltage at the ECU? It should be the same at the battery voltage under all conditions.

9) Have you look at the HC levels on an exhaust gas analyzer? I have chased my tail, more than once, only to find that the "car won't run right" because of a bad wire (that only shows up under certain temperature/load conditions).

10) Put a timing light on her. You need to know with 100% certainty if she's advancing, or not. If not, is it a bad spark box, or a vacuum leak to the box?

11) I presume that fuel pressure and volume was verified...

Hope this helps a bit...

Regards,
David
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:45 PM
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Wow, thanks David.

There's a bunch more things I can check.

Firstly, if I had a vacuum leak that was substantial enough to cause this leanness, wouldn't the car run badly at idle where vacuum is quite high? I've always known cars to run really lumpy when they have big vacuum leaks?

So I should trace the brake booster hose from where it leaves the engine and blank that pipe off right?

A propane enrichment/injection system to 'sniff' for vacuum leaks. You have me lost on that one. In the past I have sprayed carby cleaner along a V8 inlet manifold looking for leaks. If the revs changed then I knew it was sucking in a little of the carby cleaner. Is this what you mean? Should I compare vacuum at various points on both manifolds to see whether there is any differences side to side.

I take it that the auxiliary air valve circuit is for cold running. Therefore if I just remove it and connect a single hose from point to point, is this correct or does it work the other way and close off as it gets warm, so therefore I would have to close off both sides once it's removed.

Throttle plates? 0.003 - 0.004 thou clearance around the butterfly flap or where? Just need a hand here as I'm not a mechanic, just a bloke! I need to be led by the hand a bit, sorry.

WUR I'm not sure on either. But I am concerned about the temp sensor. As the car warms up, what sort of readings should the temp sensor give out. If the temp sensor is telling the ECU that the car is too hot, this could lean off the fuel I expect so I would like to check the correct operation of the water temp sensor somehow.

Voltages and grounds - easy - I'll check all those tomorrow.

HC levels haven't been checked. It wasn't a four way gas that was used, just a lambda wide band probe and analyser.

Where do you check timing on these old girls when the belts and balancer are at the front of the engine? What should the timing be anyway?

Checking fuel pressures and volumes on the weekend as per Steve's last post above. Have to source some of those scientific graduated skinny beakers from somewhere.

I've decided also to change out the injectors. This car has done 21000 miles in the UK and a further 12000kms since I've had it home in Oz. It's had fuel filters about 8000kms ago when FF tuned it here in Melbourne, but the injectors are still originals and manifolds etc have never been removed as they still have all the factory paint markings on them.

I figure that I have leanness right across both banks, but only under specific conditions ie: 2500 - 3200 rpm at very light throttle opening and near zero load (flat road) so I'm wondering if my injectors are flowing enough. I figured for the small cost I might as well change them all out and stick in a new set of brass ones anyway, so tonight I stripped down everything ready to lift out the injectors tomorrow.

So here's where I'm at tonight. Is there anything else I should look for whilst I have it down this far?
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:22 PM
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My best advise is the "eyes wide open" method of diagnostics. I have been "stumped" many times by overlooking the most simple of things...and the "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) system, when I remember to use it, usually finds the problem.

Best of luck...This will be an exciting issue to resolve.

Regards,
David
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:49 PM
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I wonder if this could be an option for KE Jetronic TR's?

http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_pwrmod.htm

http://www.autotech.com/instructions/i215200.pdf
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:58 PM
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I've located a KE specialist in Australia, but he's in Tasmania so he's a long way away.

I wrote to him of the problems and all of the tests that I've done and this was his reply:

You need to disconnect the electro hydraulic acctuators from the fuel distributors, run the engine to operating tempreture, set the idle mixture to 1.5% CO and go for a drive. If the problem is still there I would say it is probably not the KE system causing it. If it is suddenly much better it is either the electronic control of the KE or the fact that the base mixture was not set correctly. It is a waist of time trying to set the mixture with the EHA units connected as the ECU will just keep changing the mixture to where it thinks it should be.

Now once I figure out where these actuators are I'll follow his advice and have a go. BTW, does 1.5% CO mean the same as 14.7 AFR, as I don't have a four way to set the CO levels.

(I'm perplexed a bit by this new info. Pulling the plugs on the EHA units is okay, but this car has no O2 sensor, so what will tell the ECU how much fuel the car needs?)
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Presumption being made?

Robert,

Does you car utilize frequency valves and oxygen sensors?

If the the answer is "Yes", then what your specialist makes sense. The "base" mixture must always be set "open" loop first, meaning that the oxygen sensors, frequency valves and lambda control boxes are out of the loop. If the base mixture can be set "correctly", the lambda system will maintain the mixture level within a very tight range. (To set the base mixture levels, simply unplug the oxygen sensors.)

However, if your car doesn't have these components, his input does not apply to your car.

Here's a chart of AFR versus CO for your use.
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:29 PM
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I don't know what frequency valves are, but it has no O2 sensors. It's a 1988 UK spek KE JEtronic with no O2 sensors.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:29 PM
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Ooops..

Robert,

Sorry...I got KE and K confused for a moment. No frequency valves are used on a KE system.

Re-reading your previous post; Since you do not have O2 sensors, your system always runs "open loop", meaning that there is no emissions based feedback system to pull the mixture back to a pre-defined setting. Once you set the base mixture, it should maintain that base value.

So, unless I'm missing something, or just can't recall, I don't see how disconnecting the "valves" he refers to will make any difference, as now the ECU has no basis at all to set mixture, based on engine temp, etc.

Regards,
David
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:42 PM
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I think it's a test.

Pull the valves and set the mixtures rich. Then drive it in a fixed mixture position, a bit on the rich side and see if my jerking issue goes away. If it does, then it proves that it has something to do with the KE Jet system. If not, then look elsewhere, like fuel pressures, ignition etc.

That's my interpretation anyway. Do you think that makes sence?
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:59 PM
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I think it's a test.

Pull the valves and set the mixtures rich. Then drive it in a fixed mixture position, a bit on the rich side and see if my jerking issue goes away. If it does, then it proves that it has something to do with the KE Jet system. If not, then look elsewhere, like fuel pressures, ignition etc.

That's my interpretation anyway. Do you think that makes sence?
I can't say I recall doing that test on a KE car. However, if she does run fine in the mode described, that would tend to say that there's a problem with the KE-system controlling the mixture. I think this makes sense. (1.5% CO isn't really that rich anyhow...It certainly won't do any harm test purposes.)

Regards,
David
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:44 AM
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...That's my interpretation anyway. Do you think that makes sence?
Yes, that's the Suggester's intention -- to operate your system in a quasi-K-Jet without Lambda way which will give a rough test of the fuel delivery from the mechanical/hydraulic parts of the system (at the single temperature where you've manually re-tweaked it to be OK at idle with EHA current = 0 mA).

1.5% CO might be a little less (i.e., more rich) than 14.7:1, but not a lot.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:59 AM
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...(I'm perplexed a bit by this new info. Pulling the plugs on the EHA units is okay, but this car has no O2 sensor, so what will tell the ECU how much fuel the car needs?)...
You've got the right thought here -- there are fewer "inputs" on your KE system than a US version KE system, but it still uses things like the signals from the airflow potentiometers to provide enrichment (by increasing the EHA current briefly) during quick throttle opening, etc.. He's more suggesting a test where you would set things up at warm idle and then increase RPM slowly and see if it's improved/not improved/still flat at a particular spot/etc..
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:28 PM
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Well today was a very long and interesting day!

I started to changed out the injectors this morning with a borrowed tool that pulls the injector out leaving the collet in place and no engine disassembly required. I took the first one out and it was very obvious that these had been in there for 19 years. The bottom O ring on the collet (little one) was destroyed, and there was carbon build up on the underside of the fat O ring that holds in the injector. Bad start!

So then I needed to pull all the collets out. This required removal of the lower section of the intake manifolds which sounds pretty easy, until you start to do it. The rear two come off just fine, but to get the front two off, you need to remove the water spout, and to remove that you need to remove the entire injection system. Great!

That started a rather hellish day. Once I got the injection system out of the way, and very carefully bled the water out of the system so it didn't saturate the carpet in my garage, I could then see the two front lower manifolds and see how damaged they were. Corroded, paint flaking, just plain ugly. And the mess on the engine block. My car has always been pretty clean, and obviously the previous owner only cleaned what could be seen. The car still had paint lines on every nut and bolt from the factory, so has obviously never been apart at the top. There was no way that I could put new shiny injectors into those crap lower manifolds, and then put them back onto a filthy engine.

Bugga!!

Ten hours later it's in paint and drying. First a degreaser and stiff brush. Then clean off that mess and dry with a suitable cloth and air compressor. Then get out the die grinder with an assortment of wire brushes and get into it after plugging up all the holes and covering the water hole particularly. After many hours I washed it all down with white spirit, masked it all up, and then sprayed on a VHT base primer, followed by multiple coats of VHT aluminium engine enamel.

Meanwhile, between coats I sandblasted and prepared all of the manifold parts, both upper and lower sections and treated them to a primer, base coat, and then a VHT wrinkle finish, followed by a super light mist of the engine enamel so that the colours matched.

Into the wife's oven for curing and the wrinkle came up beautifully. Then the same treatment to the upper manifolds, followed by the wrinkle red late tonight, then into the oven with that too. Good thing I had the foresight to buy her the big 900mm wide oven a few years back. Comes in mighty handy!

So, that lot is all drying overnight and I've just come up after 14 hours in the shed today. Winter has set in, so I've burned about 100 kilos of wood in the pot belly stove today to keep the shed temp up enough to paint. It's 4 degrees C outside, but 21 in the shed. Hahahah. T shirt weather.

I purchased a sheet of 1mm gasket material and traced the only two gaskets I managed to get off in one piece from the bottom of the manifolds, and the wife got out the hole punch set and hobby knives and cut a full new set of gaskets for me before she cooked the dinner so they are ready to go.

So tomorrow, I'll head out early and try and find a suitable product to assist me in getting the injectors mounted into the collets, a few litres of cleaning fluid to wash everything down and a bunch of new stainless cap nuts as they were mostly rusted. Might as well change them all too, now that it's all shiny.

So hopefully she likes the attention and when the new injectors go in, she behaves herself. I live in hope!!

Here's some pics of the days dramas, including my method for injector / collet removal if they are stuck in the lower manifolds which 11 out of 12 of mine were. Remove the circlip with a cloth over the top to catch the clip as it leaps out, or you will be on hands and knees on the shed floor looking for the little suckers.

Once all the clips are out, grab a 10mm deep set socket and turn over the manifold so you are looking at the base of the injector sticking through. Slip the deep set socket over the top and using a suitable pin punch, belt the socket with a hammer. The tip of the 10mm socket is a perfect fit on the base of the collet and the socket will pass right through the collet hole. I use a 1/4 drive socket. Best way I've found to remove them with no damage to any part.
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:27 AM
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Great Job there Robert!! Those pictures sure bring back memories. If I may ask, what type and colour of crinkle paint did you use on the intake manifolds and tubes?
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:55 PM
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Well another 14 hour day and she's all back together and running. Phew!

Certainly richer, but still not right. Numbers: Idle 15.4 Cruise: 17.8 WOT: 13.5

So still very lean on cruise and it still plays up around 2700 rpm at cruise. If we could say SH!T here I would!

Anyway, the engine is all clean and painted, new injectors, new seals and O rings on injectors and collets. That's got to be good for the old girl anyway. I'll post some images of the rebuild tomorrow. Bit knackered now I must admit.

Jeff, The paint used was VHT which I think is an American product. www.vhtpaint.com or www.pj1.com and click on VHT.

For the block I used High Temperature Prime Coat light grey primer Product Number SP-304. For the engine top coat I used Very High Temperature Engine Enamel in colour 'Universal Aluminium SP-127. For the wrinkle on the manifolds I used VHT Wrinkle Plus coating. SP-205 Grey. Once the wrinkle dries to touch, you have to put the lightest mist of the engine enamel aluminium over the top of the wrinkle. Just mist it, don't let it build up at all or you will lose the wrinkle. This is the only way I've figured out to match the colours nicely between the engine paint and the wrinkle.

Got to fall into a long scotch and dry about now.
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Old 06-19-2008, 06:52 PM
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Update time:

The new injectors, O rings and seals have made the car feel wonderful. Best it's ever driven, but still not right!

I have fitted O2 sensor bungs into my Bell exhaust so now I can read each bank perfectly as they were crossing over inside the muffler and making it near impossible to tune AFR's. Now I can just screw a wide band O2 meter in on each side and set them up perfectly and individually.

So leaving everything connected, I set AFR's to 15.1 at idle and went for a drive. Car is much crisper, has much more power and a totally different sound, especially off the line. More grunty, hard to describe. But the cruise AFR's are still around 18.5.

So going back to the info supplied by the Tasmanian specialist, I removed the plugs from the electro hydraulic actuators (EHA's) at the front of the fuel distribution heads. The car ran terrible, instantly going lean to +30's. So I reset the mixtures as instructed back to low 14's and tried to drive it with the EHA's still disconnected. The instant the throttle was used, AFR's went to low 30's and the car won't even free rev to 3000. I couldn't even get it out of the garage!

So I ring Tasmania. The guy (Robin Day) is perplexed. He informs me that the car should actually drive perfectly well with the two ECU's completely unplugged and that he wanted to test AFR's with the EHA unplugged to verify that cruise AFR's were in the same range as the idles that I had set without any computer intervention.

So he's gone off to deliberate for the evening, but I'm left thinking. The plot thickens but I feel I'm getting somewhere and there are certainly gains at every step lately.

What would cause instant leanness when no ECU signals are being received by the EHA's? No fuel or little fuel pressures!!!

What if I have low fuel pressures and the ECU's are trying their hardest to provide some enrichment but fighting a losing battle because there simply isn't enough fuel delivery? If they were working to provide maximum enrichment, this could explain why I get 18 - 19 ish AFR's with the EHA connected, and stupid lean without the ECU intervention?

Why would I have low fuel pressures?

-Dirty fuel in tanks.
-Dirty filters (I replaced them 6 months ago)
-Low voltage to fuel pumps? This is possible as my fuse board wires to the fuel pumps were cactus and I fixed this last year. What if I still had resistance in the wires to the fuel pumps and were getting low voltage there. That might explain low fuel pressures?


So tomorrow I move on to the fuel delivery system but need some answers and guidance first. Where are the fuel pumps? Is there any relay between the fuse board and the fuel pumps? What fuel pressure should I have at the inlet to the pressure regulator and then at the outlet of the pressure regulator?

Then the last step will be to check for fuel pressure exiting the top of the distribution heads to the fuel injector lines. What pressure should I have here?

Also, should I drain the tanks and check the fuel for dirty deposits? If so, where are the drain plugs located?

So many question, so little time.

I've taken annual leave until I fix this thing. The Mrs. isn't impressed but I've told her that I won't be so grumpy once I sort out this issue.
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Old 06-19-2008, 07:28 PM
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Wink Going back to basics?

Robert,

Most interesting findings...

Have you:
-Checked to fuel pump (system pressure) at the fuel distributors?
-Checked the fuel pump volumes? (cc/minute)

Without both pressure and volume in specs and known, you're kind of chasing your tail, so to speak...

Prior to any CIS, CIS-E or CIS w/Lambda diagnostics, fuel pressure and volume is always a good place to start.

Regards,
David
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Old 06-19-2008, 07:59 PM
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Robert,

Have you:
-Checked to fuel pump (system pressure) at the fuel distributors?
-Checked the fuel pump volumes? (cc/minute)

Without both pressure and volume in specs and known, you're kind of chasing your tail, so to speak...

Prior to any CIS, CIS-E or CIS w/Lambda diagnostics, fuel pressure and volume is always a good place to start.

Regards,
David
Thanks David, those are on my tomorrow list. Referring back to my post above, I don't know where the fuel pumps are or what the output pressure should be. I think I need to check fuel pressures on entry to the pressure regulator and exit so I can be assured that the pressure regs are both working properly but also don't know what numbers to expect at each point.

Steve M pointed out a way to check flow to the injectors in cc/min but now that they are all new, I really just need to check flow from the pumps to the heads so if you have an idea of how much volume should flow in a specific time, that would be great also.

So it's numbers that are needed tonight, so if any of you USA guys can assist whilst I'm sleeping, tomorrow morning I'll get into it and start checking some of the readings out.

Getting excited now. I'm finding problems and problems can be fixed. Just a bit more diagnosing to go.

Thanks heaps for the help all you blokes. This car is going to be a screamer...............again............like it once was, and like I've actually never experienced. I thought it was good before, but now it's going to be great!
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:24 PM
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Hope your sleeping soundly Robert! The fuel tanks are located just ahead of - and below - the engine bay. The tanks have a rough texture and are a dull silver in colour. The fuel pumps are located in between the two fuel tanks, at the bottom. You will have to remove the fuel pump protection plates to gain access. Once your under the car, you will see where everything is. As for fuel pressure you should have, I think......around 80psi at delivery.

You mentioned that perhaps the ECUs are fighting a losing battle to provide enrichment due to low fuel delivery...I think this may be correct - but - I have a hunch your fuel pumps and delivery pressures are okay. The Bosch system richens or leans the fuel mixture by the use of valves inside the fuel distributors, based on signals from various sensors and the like. When I'm adjusting my TR fuel mixtures, I first have to establish a "base line" air fuel ratio - with the O2 sensors disconnected - this way there is no electronic "nanny" trying to compensate. Then when I have everything set, I hook the O2s back up and all is fine. There is a way to measure the duty cycle of the fuel system adjustments and verify that things are working right, but I can't remember off hand how to do it.

For your car (with no O2 sensors), I would try and set the base-line fuel mixtures with the EHAs disconnected, then hook them up and see how the car runs. The fuel system should be able to adjust the mixture both ways - rich and lean - off of the base-line setting. If your system is always attempting to richen things up as best it can - I think your earlier hypothesis may be correct.
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:15 PM
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She's got me spending 'quality time' with her watching the TV Jeff. I'd rather be in the shed fixing the old girl!

10.07pm here.

Robin Day in Tasmania (www.southportfuelinjection.com) was really suprised that the car wouldn't even free rev, let alone drive, when I set the mixtures with the EHA units disconnected. He reckons the car should drive fine with no computer intervention at all, and that in reality, the ECU's just do a bit of fine tuning to the mixtures depending on the signals recieved from the other sensors, and in your case, from the O2 sensors. It's baffled him that the car is so crook with idle mixtures set with EHA's off, and why it goes off the scale lean (like 35plus) as soon as the throttle is touched. I literally couldn't get it out of the shed.

He told me that you can actually unplu the ECU's on a KE Jet system and the car will take you home with little or no fuss on base settings, maybe a little down on grunt but you will get home. That's what he wanted me to do today. Drive the car with EHA's off and base mixtures set, then drive it and report back to him what the AFR readings were at WOT and cruise. Unfortunately, I couldn't do it as it wouldn't drive on off idle AFR's over 35.

I must be getting somewhere as the car feels great with the new injectors, or maybe she just likes the attention!!

Haven't heard from Steve for a while. I thought he may have the fuel presure numbers that I need? Maybe he's away somewhere.
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:19 PM
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Jeff, have you ever heard of anyone having low voltage at the fuel pumps after having burnt pins or tracks on their fuse boards?

I wonder if the wire goes direct from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pumps or if it has joiners or anything along the way. You know, if that wire builds up age resistance enough to cause the pins and tracks in the circuit board to be burnt, is it feasable to consider that the wire may not be conducting sufficient current to the fuel pumps. Not enough current, not enough flow?

Just a thought as we all seem to have had issues with the white plugs, and in particularly, the fuel pump connections at the fuseboard.
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:51 AM
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I dont think there are any "joiners" for the fuel pump wires. For my fuse panel, I simply wired up the fuel pump and cooling fan relays seperately from the mother board. I still use the relays and all, but now there are good spade connectors making contacts instead of the weak factory "pincher" type connectors.

Do I understand it, that you DID set your fuel mixtures with the EHA's disconnected? So there was no "input" from the brains during the mixture adjustments? Has it been your experience that only VERY small movements of the mixture screws are needed to change the AFR?

Yes...the EHA's can adjust the mixtures up or down a small amount...about 1.5 to 2.0 on the scale (with 14.7 base-line being ideal). That is why a base-line mixture setting is so crucial. Based on this assumption it just doesn't seem possible to have a mixture vary over such a wide range. This makes me just a bit skeptical about the readings. The only way the engine could go that lean is for a huge amount of extra air (not metered) to be allowed into the intake stream at open throttle, or there is no increase in fuel flow from idle to open throttle. Here's a wierd and perhaps unrelated question...does your car have an air pump located on the left-front of the engine? If not...are there triangular shaped ports on the bottom of the heads, about in the middle (front to back)? If so are these ports blocked off?

I'm only guessing here...but I'd imagine the inputs to your fuel system brains are based on the timing, rpms, vacuum, temperature, throttle micro-switch, and airflow metering plate movement sensor. Vacuum is important for the ignition brain, and also for the pressure differential switch (located in the right-front corner of the engine bay). Low vacuum tells the brains that the throttles are open and enrichment should occur. Perahps some vacuum-sensitive item isn't getting a signal? I wonder if a vacuum line could be incorrectly routed?
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:43 AM
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Robert's car is an F113B TR (KE-Jet without Lambda) so there's no intelligent connection between the exhaust gas O2 content and the current going to the EHAs.

 
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...Steve M pointed out a way to check flow to the injectors in cc/min but now that they are all new, I really just need to check flow from the pumps to the heads....
Unfortunately, this is not true -- even if all of the injectors are working perfectly, this does not guarantee equal flow rates of fuel are exiting the injectors vs the airflow plate position. You seem to have dismissed the results of the (clever IMO) test with the EHAs unplugged (i.e., constant current of 0 mA in the EHAs and the mixture screws manually re-tweaked at idle to add back the "missing" fuel) -- just replacing the injectors does not "solve" this problem (if present).

The regulated fuel supply pressure spec is 5.0 - 5.6 bar (you need a TR WSM!)

 
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...Then the last step will be to check for fuel pressure exiting the top of the distribution heads to the fuel injector lines. What pressure should I have here?...
The pressure measured here would not be that useful -- the pressure in the lines going to the injectors would just be a quasi-constant value in each line, regardless of engine RPM, if the injector was working properly.

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 06-20-2008 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:13 AM
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You seem to have dismissed the results of the (clever IMO) test with the EHAs unplugged (i.e., constant current of 0 mA in the EHAs and the mixture screws manually retweaked at idle to add back the "missing" fuel)

Not sure what you mean here Steve.

After speaking to the Tassie specialist yesterday I did set the mixtures without the EHA's attached. There was a huge difference and I had to screw down a heap to get them to 15's with EHA off. But when I tried to drive it with them still off, it goes super lean as soon as I touch the throttle and hasn't enuff power to get out of the shed.

I take it that when this model is tuned, idle mixtures are supposed to be set with no EHA attached, and then plug them back in and away you go?

If that is the case then I have been doing it wrong as I've been setting base settings with the EHA's attached.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:14 PM
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No, you've been doing it correctly -- if you want to run with the EHAs plugged in, it should be tweaked up while they are plugged in; and, likewise, for the test for running with the EHAs unplugged, it should be tweaked up when they are unplugged.

The test suggester's point is that with the EHAs unplugged (and the mixture manually re-tweaked for good idle), you know for sure that the EHA current isn't changing in some bizarre unexpected way (because it's zero); consequently, the EHA system can't be causing the lean condition problem at higher RPM, and you almost certainly have some type of fuel delivery problem that is somewhere in the strainer-to-pump-to-regulator-to-FD-to-injector food chain.
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Thanks Steve. Well today seemed like a waste of time. I spent hours trying to locate suitable fittings to T piece into the fuel lines and failed. Aussies, too intent on Ford's and Holden's to carry anything European or metric.

I got under it this morning and checked voltage at the pumps using the pumps own earths. 13.6v with engine running at idle so that seemed okay. I suppose next I need to check amperage at the same place but need four hands for that so will do it on the weekend with the wife on the key.

To do fuel pressures I've been trying to connect between the accumulator and the fuel filter as it's right on the rail and easy to get to. I figured I need to take two readings. One with engine running and system in standard form, and then pinch off the return line to the tank and see if the pressure rises. This should show me static fuel pressure and then with the line pinched off I should be able to see if the pressure reg is working properly.

If this isn't the right place to test, then I'll have to remove the upper manifold again and test elsewhere. Please advise.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:05 PM
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I got an email back from Robin in Tasmania tonight, who says:

"Never pinch of the return line or you will instantly destroy the insides of both fuel distributors."

So now I'm in a bit of a quandary. Where do I hook in to get fuel pump pressure without pulling the manifolds off again, or is this not possible? Obviously I need to check a few things. Fuel pump volume, fuel pump pressure, and fuel pump amperage.

I think I also need to check the pressure regulators to ensure that they are working properly, but where and how do I hook into them?

So far every test that I've done, the car passes except one. When I set the idles with no EHA and then try and drive it, it just goes so lean that it won't even move. I was also told today by a local Ferrari garage that excess fuel pressure can lead to leanness on these cars. Could this be right?
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:55 AM
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...Where do I hook in to get fuel pump pressure without pulling the manifolds off again, or is this not possible? Obviously I need to check a few things. Fuel pump volume, fuel pump pressure, and fuel pump amperage.

I think I also need to check the pressure regulators to ensure that they are working properly, but where and how do I hook into them?...
You really need to get a TR WSM (with the longer chapter D including the US KE-Jet set-up) and read all of chapter D. No need to measure the fuel pump currents yet (and it's much easier to measure them at the relay sockets rather than in the wiring at the pumps) -- if you had a WSM, you'd know that the first two tests are:

1. measuring the supply regulated pressure, and (if OK)

2. measuring the volume of fuel returning to the tank during a fixed time when the fuel system is at the regulated supply pressure with the engine off.

If both those tests are OK, there's no need to look any further at the pumps.

The attached jpeg shows where you can measure the regulated supply fuel pressure on a KE-Jet FD (this is the kind of information you would see in the cross-section drawing of the KE-Jet FD internal plumbing in the TR WSM). Most Bosch CIS fuel pressure test kits come with the right M10 x 1 (IIRC) fitting to hook into either of those two ports -- shouldn't be expensive -- way less $ than a day of your time
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:58 AM
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Thanks Steve,

I have a copy of the WSM on CD but it's not very clear in many respects. Certainly doesn't tell me what your post above does.

Rob.
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Old 06-21-2008, 12:23 PM
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Well that was easy when I knew how to do it.

1 - 6> 5.5 bar at the correct sampling port on the distribution head with engine running. Dropped and held at 2.9 bar when engine off.
7 - 12> 5.5 bar at the cold start injector port exiting the distribution head with engine running and held at 3.0 bar when engine off.
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:18 PM
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Steve, when I took these pressure readings I only put the gauge straight into the pressure port / cold start port and read the readings straight from there. I notice that your gauge has a T fitting that you probably take to the side of the warm up regulator / control pressure regulator.

If I T into my system, where would I pickup the control flow from.

My primary pressure regulator has two inputs, one large hard steel line, and one smaller nylon line, and one return to the tank. As per the image below.
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:20 PM
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Even the WSM only talks about the control pressure regulator type of system and gives good notes on where to pick up lines, but this isn't much good in my case.

The WSM indicates that the connections must be done like this:
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:40 PM
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As my system is totally different, I have to presume that to ascertain control pressures, that I need to read the pressures from the small nylon line that runs from the side of the distribution block down to the side of the pressure regulator - ie: the line missing in my photo above.

If fuel pressure is removed from this line, I would expect that the pressure regulator closes, and no fuel is returned to the tank thereby giving me a primary system pressure, which should be 5.5 bar or thereabouts. If I then open the valve on my pressure gauge and allow fuel pressure to flow along this line, then the pressure regulator should open, dropping system pressures down to about 1.6 bar (20 - 25 psi) and allowing fuel to return to the tank.

Does this theory sound correct?

I have K Jetronic and KE Jetronic Bosch Technical Instruction manuals as well as the Ferrari WSM, but this is as clear as mud in all of them.
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:39 PM
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You are confusing K-Jet (that has a "control pressure" involved) with KE-Jet (that does not). Even though the FDs for each type look very similar, the internal plumbing/construction is completely different -- compare the K-Jet FD cross-section in Fig 8 page D11 to the KE-Jet FD cross-section in Fig 53 page 73.

The figure of the gauge connections you posted is only for K-Jet systems -- the way you measured (directly at the cold start injector port or the top test port) is correct for KE-Jet (and the values are OK). Does your TR WSM have pages D68-D105, or does it end at page D67?

Bottom line is that your regulated supply pressure measures OK, and if the fuel delivery test is OK, the next thing to measure is the fuel flow rate out of the injectors themselves (post #45). The fuel delivery test is described on pages D37-D38, but the connections are described for the K-Jet system (where the pressure regulator is part of the FD so the return line shown in Fig 31 page D38 comes from the FD). For a KE-Jet system, the return lines to the tank come from the pressure regulators and are shown in Fig 48 of your OM as labelled here. Remove the rubber line going to the tank from the steel line coming from pressure regulator; connect one end of a new rubber line to the steel line; and put the other end of the rubber line in the measuring container like shown in Fig 31 page D38; jump the fuel pump relay socket and run the fuel pump for 30 sec -- if you get more than 1 litre, all is OK.
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:20 PM
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No, I haven't got the systems confused Steve, I know what I have and I know that the architecture of the heads is totally different, hence EHA's and no warm up regs etc on my car, and no internal pressure reg but an external one instead that operates differently.

The thing it, all documentation that I have deals with the earlier system and how to test it and it's quite specific in that you need to know system pressure (75psi) AND controlled pressure (20 - 25psi). Now, I figure this is also important on my system, or else how am I going to know if I'm getting control over the fuel pressure from my pressure regulators?

There musty be a test for them to see if the actual pressure regulator is working as designed.

I have done primary pressures as your drawing shows, and so far that looks fine.

I can get to the return line on the RHS pretty easy to test the return volume to the tank from the pressure reg, but I think I'll have to remove the manifold on the LHS as the oil filer, allow breather pipe, and the alternator cooling duct are all in the way of the steel to rubber pipe join so I'll do that next and report back in with the volumes of the tank return lines.

This still doesn't tell me that the pressure regs are doing their job properly though.

So far we know that all electrics appear to be working correctly as per yours and David's tests.
We know that I have 13.3v at the fuel pumps and that the grounds are good.
Primary pressure at the fuel heads / cold start injectors is 5.5 bar.

I also know that if tuned with EHA's attached and idle mixtures set to 15.1 that I have cruise mixtures of 18.5 even after the new injectors have been fitted and WOT just makes it into the 14 range.

If I tune the idle mixtures with no EHA's to 14's, the car idles fine but wont free rev or even produce enough power to move, and the AFR's go off the scale (40) super lean as soon as the throttle is touched. This is with the EHA's left unplugged as suggested by Robin in Tasmania as his simple test.

What I don't know yet (and some of these things may not be critical):

1. If my pressure regulators are working properly.
2. What my timing is at idle. Can you tel me the figure expected here ie: 10d btdc etc.
3. Am I getting ignition advance as the revs lift.
4. What amperage my fuel pumps are drawing under idle and load.
5. What the flow rate at the injectors is.

At least it's miserable, raining and freezing cold. I don't mind the car being off the road when it's like this, especially when I feel that we are making progress even though it's a very frustrating diagnostic process.

Without you, Dave and Jeff, I'd be buggered, so keep the suggestions coming and between us all we can beat this. It's only a machine after all.

Rob.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:34 PM
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OM says ignition timing at 1000 rpm of 8 deg and advance to 30 deg at 5000 rpm. Does anyone have an incremental advance table or tell me what it should advance to at say 3000 rpm. I'm not free revving it to 5000 in the garage in it's current state.
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:02 AM
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The thing it, all documentation that I have deals with the earlier system and how to test it and it's quite specific in that you need to know system pressure (75psi) AND controlled pressure (20 - 25psi)...
I repeat -- there is no control pressure to measure on a KE-Jet -- do you have pages D68 to D105?

 
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...There must be a test for them to see if the actual pressure regulator is working as designed.

I have done primary pressures as your drawing shows, and so far that looks fine....This still doesn't tell me that the pressure regs are doing their job properly though...
Yes it does -- the only function of the pressure regulators is to keep the supply pressure at the 5.0-5.6 bar value (with adequate flow volume) -- the regulated supply pressure doesn't change with operating conditions/loads.
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Old 06-22-2008, 08:57 AM
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No Steve, mine stops at D60 being the last page.

Page 138 of 557 in the manual.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:01 AM
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I'd recommend that you get them -- even though they are for a US KE-Jet with Lambda, it will help explain things IMO.

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Old 06-22-2008, 09:04 AM
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Is there a source for such things.

I bought my manual on ebay when I got the car, and have bought the Tech Manuals new from Bosch on the KE Jet system. I've noticed that your posted wiring diagrams are really great quality compared to the CD WSM that I have.

Where does one obtain such things?
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:33 AM
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I got mine from www.ferraribooks.com, but it's like the F parts -- there's 3-4-5 typical on-line F literature suppliers if you search -- and Maranello Concessionaires had some unbelievably reasonable prices on F literature a few years ago, but that was when they were associated with the Owners Site so maybe not anymore.

If you'd need to buy the whole WSM to get those pages, and don't want to, another option for you is the special booklet that they did for your "Standard Version" (Versione Base) KE-Jetronic F113B. It's really just a subset of the same US Version KE-Jet information on the D68-D105 pages with the O2 sensor and thermocouple stuff left out so either would do. I have a Mar Parts reprint Part No. 95990856.
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Old 06-22-2008, 05:33 PM
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Well I didn't get too much done today. Had to take Suzie shopping etc....

But, I did get fuel pump amperage done. Right: 8.62 amps with relay tripped out, no car running. Left: 8.52 amps. So that looks pretty good, doesn't seem to be too much resistance from the pumps so they appear to be in good shape.

Also I had a look at the timing. I hooked in to number one spark plug lead, presuming that was the right one?

AF mark comes up spot on between the pointer bolt holes at idle 1050 rpm. Then A5 comes up pretty much perfect at 5000 rpm so it seems that I am getting the correct advance from the electronic control unit.

D6 in my WSM shows AF as fixed advance, but on the diagram it shows AF 14 degrees, AA 16 degrees, and A5 30 degrees. The OM shows base timing at 8 degrees, yet with my gun on zero, AF was right on the marker at idle. Is this right?

I have a timing light that you can adjust the advance knob and one interesting thing, was that at idle, when I adjusted my gun up to 50 deg advanced, there was a marker on the flex plate that came up. About 1mm deep, 7mm long and 4mm wide. So quite a specific marker and at 50 degrees it was right between the markers. I couldn't find any reference to this mark in the WSM.

So, anyway, there's another couple of things off the checkout list.

Seems the last thing is the fuel line return flow test and the individual injector line flow test.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:12 AM
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Remove the rubber line going to the tank from the steel line coming from pressure regulator; connect one end of a new rubber line to the steel line; and put the other end of the rubber line in the measuring container like shown in Fig 31 page D38; jump the fuel pump relay socket and run the fuel pump for 30 sec -- if you get more than 1 litre, all is OK.
Did this just now, LHS flowed exactly 1.5 litres in 30 seconds. RHS 1.54 litres returned in 30 seconds.

I also wound my compressor down to 25lbs and after taking the cap off I blew through the return lines. Instantly I heard fuel bubbling so no return restriction either.

Not much to check now, only flow from the distribution heads and I'm not really setup to do that. I'll have to try and source these graduated plastic beakers that Steve talks about.

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Old 07-02-2008, 11:21 AM
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Something else just came to mind here.

I'm only testing the lambda, not CO's, hydrocarbons etc. I just spoke to the guy refurbishing the heads and he's worried that cam timing may be out. He has seen many issues with Porsche boxer style engines that have shown up when the cars were put onto a five way gas analyser. Cam timing was out and even though the Bosch units were performing faultlessly, at constant light throttle, the cars started bucking and surging and generally throwing themselves around.

FF here in Melbourne also mentioned this to me as a possibility on Sunday.

What's your thoughts on this, and is it possible to check the cam timing with the engine still in the car.
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:30 PM
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The "approximate" way to check cam timing is to get the motor at top-dead-centre and look and the "reference" pointers on the rear cam belt covers in relation to the marks on the cams. This method will tell you if something is really screwed up.

Space is very tight for doing an actual cam timing check with a degree wheel, but it "may" be possible. At the front of the motor you will either have to remove the crankshaft pulley, or figure some way to mount the wheel onto the pulley, while keeping in mind that you will need to turn the crankshaft over with a 36mm socket on the harmonic balancer bolt. Then you will have to pull off the cam cover and try and mount up a dial indicator to the camshaft lobes at #1 cylinder (you will want to degree both intake and exhaust cams).

As for the cam timing causing the lean condition and the surging, would this mean that the intake cams are slightly advanced from the optimum timing, and not allowing enough time (intake valve open) for sufficient fuel to enter into the combustion chamber? I would like to learn more about this....can anyone explain it?

 

 

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